It is best to study what the schools of Judaism taught during that era of that temple. There are Rabbinic schools today, of course, who would study the sorts of things Paul would have, so perhaps a yeshiva is a good parallel to Pauls education. He was an expert in the law. Needless to say, many still revere Philomena and Christopher as saints. No one. Which is why the Holy Spirit and Jesus chose to use Paul I believe because he had all the good and needed training before his conversion. He also intimately knew Gamaliel was was there, at least at The time of Pentecost. So get to work! You might be interested: Was Paul The Apostle Alive When Jesus Lived? Same question; Specifically, what were Pauls specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? If the mere thought of questioning Pauline Doctrine or Pauls truthfulness ruffles your feathers, its a sign that Pauls rotten spiritual fruit has taken root in your life. These would be lofty words for a law abiding Pharisee to be speaking and Paul obviously saw Christ as the laws fulfillment. Paul probably understood Judaism better than all of these false teachers put together. Gamaliel, as it appears, did most toward establish-. For instance, Shammai believed the halachot they created that gentiles could never be saved or be in covenant and to eat with them was idolatry. Therefore, in times when there is no clarity, we should end there and not come up with our own assumptions. There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. The rabbi Gamaliel was a Pharisee in the tradition of the great Hillel. ), Phillip, In your other post on Paul and Gamaliel http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/ You said, QUOTE: There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. When cult members repeat their mantra, it makes them deaf to the voice of God, unable to hear God. Why follow a self-appointed voice that has given itself a special title like immaculate conception prophet apostle to the gentiles? Paul, (Timothy1:1) Jesus said, "Ye must be born again" to? Hillel disagreed on this aspect, due to many converts in the Torah ( Ruth, Obidiah, Abraham etc.) Phillip you have been an inspiration to me here is a new poem. Paul may very well have studied under Gamaliel and from there established the groundwork from which to build a new movement. With respect to Hellenism, Hillel was more open to Hellenism than Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans. As a side note, Wright has an excellent article on that on http://www.ntwrightpage.com here: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Paul_Arabia_Elijah.pdf. His knowledge and metaphors have helped me relate more to what his letters say. Provocative. Go and sin no more said Jesus, Dont relive that history. What is undisputed is that Gamaliel was "held in . 5:7) Paul takes a Nazarite vow, validate his claim that he doesnt teach against Torah and upholds it. And one throne for that other guy named Peter. I am surprised that no one has brought the tradition that Gamaliel was sympathetic to Christianity, if not himself baptized. He was brilliant and a top-educated person of his day. To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. Its based on a misinterpretation, out of context, of one verse in one letter written by one man, Paul the Pharisee, who was unfamiliar with the personal ministry and teaching of Jesus. It makes sense to affirm that the God Who made us gave us a revelation of himself that we can understand. The relics of Saint Stephen were translated several months later to . Whom I might add are much more well versed that you in that subject. Jesus came to fulfill Law and Prophets and He will. The alternative must be that the author of Acts was using some literary licence in portraying the event. He was raised in a Jewish society and home because everyone in the entire New Testament are Jews (or converts) who followed Torah. I started following this discussion because I wanted to find out more about Gamaliel, but this thread has thrown up many more points about the Apostles and St Paul in particular. mercer county, pa public records; facts about the roman . Paul cannot stand alone in opposition to Jesus and everyone else. He has Masters degrees in Biblical Exposition and Old Testament from Talbot School of Theology (BIOLA) and a PhD in New Testament from Andrews University. Yes, 99.9% of Christians absolute gets Pauls writings wrong. Blessings following the Jesus of the Gospels. Shaul and Yehusa were both Jews who practiced Judaism, worshiped in synagogues, at the temple and were part of Jewish society and culture. In other words, had God been preparing Saul for this breakthrough prior to Acts chapter 9? So we know that he is a Pharisee, is part of the Sanhedrin, and taught the man who would eventually pen the majority of the New Testament. Stop pitying yourself, you are not being persecuted. But he certainly reinforces your prejudice and misunderstanding of the New Testament. There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. There is more to Sauls violence than preaching Jesus as Messiah. Instead, it puts their focus on their one special man above all others his personality, words and teachings, character, life example, feelings, experience, intentions, mind, will, emotions, etc. Do you have a Biblical basis for your response? Was Judas present when Jesus spoke those words? How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel?, As a devout young Jewish man who was taught by quite a peaceful, que sera sera, member of the Sanhedrin, it is somewhat surprising that Paul (Saul at the time) would be one to persecute Jewish Christians so vehemently. If you say we dont know enough, or it isnt clear, you are not familiar with the text of the New Testament. He will give himself a special title, write at least one special book, and claim special authority, with no need for a second witness to back him up. and to make a point in this conversation,where did you get the idea that Saul (Paul) was Jewish.? Any help is much appreciated, in advance! Who was Paul's mentor in his study of Judaism? He was the son of Simeon ben Hillel and grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel the Elder. A generation before Christ there were two great rabbis, Hillel and Shammai. Yet even here, not even Paul, not even once, ever said that All Scripture is EQUAL in authority, priority, and importance. Gravity. But let us not confuse the issue with facts. Paul may be seeing this as another threat to the Law and acts as his predecessors did to preserve the culture and traditions of the Pharisaical movement and interpretations. Educated under Gamaliel, who is still to this day regarded as one of the most influential rabbis in judaism. (The Hat is, what were Pauls sins?) Here are the basic steps- (there may be one or two other basic steps, but they are very similar to these. Mainstream Judaism also reject Josephus and its evident that he was clearly Jewish. He tells his readers that he is "a Hebrew of Hebrews.". Yet Mohammed (saw) reiterated the message as Gods Messenger and like the Pharisees rejected him because their forefathers corrupted the original message. So being an Apostle of Jesus involves being sent by Jesus, yes. For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22.6). The Lord Jesus clinches this point: if ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free (John 8:31-32). If probably, then how would we know whether Paul ever pulled a rare Justice Rehnquist move, where Rehnquist sides with liberal Justices and dissents against conservatives in weird and inexplicable single cases or two? I would not limit the intervention of God in the light of Pauls claim in Galatians 1 that God had prepared him before he was born for the grace he has received (Gal 1:15). in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. Deuteronomy 29:29. I think they are both wrong, because of Ephesians 2:15 and Matthew 5:17-20, among other Scripture passages Can you help to bring harmony in the Bride of Christ? Match. .1) There is more New Testament text written specifically about the Church in Corinth than any other church, by far. While his academic eloquence and Oxbridge accent package his presuupositional as carrying high credibility, it too frequently in substance simply does not. His most recent book is The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World (Rockridge, 2022). Also Gamaliel was apart of the Sanhedrin which were the people that ultimately were the people who decided Jesus fate and persecuted many of the Jews. Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). Youre putting your western views on a Hebraic book that is of near eastern culture. (Soon, in the Logos Library!) Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them. Paul said: I became your father. For example, are we missing any casuistry from Gamaliel which might demonstrate Gamaliels dissent from Hillel in specific cases presenting unique facts? I have been looking and wanted to know about the Gamaliel , because in Nepal we have competition for the ranking and Im bit aware of this and I have burden for our people in Nepal not go this way and I want to teach as a teacher to be out from this kinds of Gamaliel position, who just want to be in the meeting not taking burden of their neighbor who need Jesus than taking a position in the Gamaliel meetings. If the LORD Yahweh, and His Son Yeshua the Jewish Messiah is God, follow Him; but if Paal is God, follow him. And Christians do it with pride as there is no Trinity and the Bible doesnt say there is OR that God is more than 1. George Clinton? maybe not. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. He studied under the best Jewish teachers including the well-respected teacher, Gamaliel . It generated a great deal of discussion, some of which was more heat than light. scholars can go in making probable rather than possible (speculative) inferences? Acts recounts the times he faced persecution (13:45; 14:19) and risked his . Yes the Holy Spirit guided him in his writings, but part of being human is how we are shaped from our teachers and mentors. Perhaps a foundation stone? The irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said NOT to do. You are using anachronistic terms to describe a pre-70 Jewish teacher like Paul. [Acts 20:31 vs Acts 19:8-10], .4) Paul abandoning the Church in Corinth after a year and a half for no obvious reason, and going off on another long trip, mostly on his own, without appointing anyone else in Corinth as overseer, or giving anyone else any specific authority in the Church in Corinth. Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. When Christ was first preached multitudes gladly received the word. I have also posted dozens of articles on the literature of the Second Temple Period, all of which ought to interest you. [Acts 18}, .5) Paul acting as an abusive absentee overseer / pastor to the Church in Corinth years after he abandoned them, and clinging to all power and claim to control of money and all aspects of the church ministry, while he was hundreds of miles away teaching full-time in his own school in Ephesus. For Chilton, it was the speech of Stephen that forced Paul to openly break from his teacher by participating in the stoning of Stephen (Rabbi Jesus, 43). I did not see this question before, sorry. He came so we can turn from darkness And into His glorious light. [erase erase erase], Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. So what is the application of this parable? "Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. Taken directly from Talmud. His primary Tarsus of Cilicia. And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become like Paul. But I digress, James, we had a good run. I could just say Jesus is our model. But never discuss the Scriptures that show why Paul is NOT our model. .2) Paul lying to the Ephesian elders saying he was compelled by the Spirit going to Jerusalem, when in truth he was clearly disobeying God. That is an issue and is creating confusion regarding the Brit Chadashah (Renewed Testament). Jesus is in agreement with the Law and the Prophets and came to fulfill them. [Matthew 5:17-20]. . The first thing was that they might be with Him personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. As to pauls seemingly at odds relationship with his teacher Gamaliel, it is no odd thing for a student to differ from a teacher, especially if the student is quite a zealous one. Yahweh is the path to freedom, not Paul. Written in stone. What could be more permanent than that? But there is a notable difference in Paul from pre- to post-conversion. That means open your Bible and be specific. That is a good question, I am not sure if anyone has ever asked me that before! A Nazarite vow entail a MANTADORY sacrifice to the temple. Yet Jesus is the object of worship, turned into a false god believed to be confirmed in a book that actually refutes it! He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. Rome is the city that sits on seven hills, the perfect place for Peter the Roman, the New World Pope for the New World Order, to replace the original Apostle Peter in the apostate church of the Antichrist. Dmando0110. whats d equivalence of studying at d feet of Gamaliel to todays education. Gamaliel In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor of Jewish Law. So if our priorities are The Great Commission and the Great Commandment, we have our priorities upside down and confused, and we are not listening to the voice of Jesus. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection. [Acts 1:21-22]. I think in certain ways, Paul can be described as a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus because there are times when Paul goes very much by the books and follows certain rules. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing. [Romans 7:15-19] (Response- One more time! I think the point was not that Jesus was the Messiah, but rather that Peter and John are stating that the High Priest killed the Messiah and God vindicated him by raising him from the dead. When Saul encountered the Lords voice in Acts chapter 9, it makes me question if Saul had been hearing the Lords voice sooner, but he was not listening? Paul was a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions without fault. b) Greg Laurie, the Boss of a wide-ranging personal cult empire that generally goes by the name of Harvest. Greg lives in Newport Beach, commutes by helicopter, and exploits the very large church he founded in Riverside from a distance, while he does his own thing in Orange County and travels around wherever he feels like, building a personal business empire with himself as the center, not Jesus. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. Paul, Silas, and Timothy, now joined by Luke, sailed from Troas to Greece and made their way to Philippi. Sin is always specific, not general. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. Acts 6:9 But resistance arose from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and men from the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. While he agrees with Gamaliel, Paul wants to protect that which he loves. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon [Matthew 10:1]. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some (1 Corinthians 9:22 ESV).. Things which are unclear, those must remain that way until the Holy Spirit reveal them to each and everyone of us according to the level of grace , and most importantly, for a particular purpose, We born again believers do not read to know like them, but we read to live. Paul is the model pastor for many modern Pauls like; a) Bob Coy, who still owns all the assets and controls all the money at his cult known as Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, in spite of his recent resignation as Senior Pastor there due to adultery with multiple woman and other major sins that he still has never specifically admitted to personally. therefore I urge you to imitate me, and I have become all things to all men. Paul thinks hes Boss, and doesnt need to listen to your instructions that I gave him.. Thanks for the pointer. Islam is the truth, Allah Akbar/God is Greatest. It is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from Johns baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. The rule is- never step on the Hat, just keep dancing around it. Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses, as it says in the Law ! And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. Once we allow things that we can not say with certainty, we give a foothold to the enemy to sow his seed too. May I ask which verses of Scripture you are basing this on? Paul made up his own rule. Jesus never said anything like that, and Jesus did not see it that way. Dang, I wrote that and didnt respond to your last point. You seem to parrot some of his words in your replies. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. You are unable to understand this since you assume all Christians believe wrongly about Jesus and Paul. Have heard some scholars saying that If Paul was living in the 21 century he would have had 5 phd, how true is that. Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we cant prove that Judas wasnt there at the time, we certainly cant prove that Judas WAS there. He calls himself "of the people of Israel.". If we need a man or a group of men to interpret the Word for us, that would make it a revelation that needs to be revealed. But you are still not a Muslim when our Quran is incorruptible and agrees with the teachings of Issa (p) more so than theology of Orthodox Church or any Christian denomination! Rabbinical eras Chazal Zugot Tannaim Amoraim Savoraim Geonim Rishonim Acharonim v t e In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor You are extremely insulting to me when you ignore what was written and only hear what your own prejudice allows. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. If we didnt also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. Per Matthew he told his followers to follow the teachings of the Pharisee. This article is the result of when you remove the culture/context of the scriptures, the Hebraics of the Brist Chadasha (Renewed Testament) and injecting the christian outlook that Shaul (Paul) divorced his Jewish roots. (Also to other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke.) Sometimes, Paul was wrong. I feel that (not competent to know) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how far N.T. he wouldn't just give it all up on a whim, especially not to be jailed, flogged, persecuted, and executed for it. However the church now says the law has been done away with and they have replace Israel. To teach the bible, it is mandatory to teach from a Pharisaic background. The overwhelming majority of the epistles is actually fighting against the teachings of Shammai in his time period. I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. This is your only warning before being banned for incivility. This is not the sort of education most people would even want, so it is not really a college degree. Yeshua himself even quotes these writings directly. But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. More Wright supposition! Paul (previously called Saul of Tarsus; c. 5 - c. 64/65 AD), commonly known as Paul the Apostle and Saint Paul, was a Christian apostle who spread the teachings of Jesus in the first-century world. There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts.. Created by. It seems that Pauls upbringing and learning under Gamaliel would have to play some role in the way that he thought, taught, and formed his theology. Yes I believe that Paul was influenced by his teacher Gamaliel and his experience of being a Pharisee, but I do not think these were the only factors shaping how and what Paul taught and wrote. For that matter, was he even n the observing crowd at the time of the 1st Pentecost speech by Peter? This notion is wrong. When Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after he took office. Gamaliel and his beliefs seem to have a fairly large impact on Paul and his theology. God made us and loves us and He does reveal His will in language we can gladly receive, comprehend and obey. As sort of my own counter point against my first paragraph, It is not surprising then that Paul acts out the way he does. Completely different mindset in Jerusalem which forbade such things. I wont say Im high on Jesus, and so using a mind-altering drug for recreational purposes is wrong, because Jesus is better. I dont want to be rejected by my peers. Their differing viewpoints do not seem like enough cause, to me, to doubt that Saul studied with Gamaliel. brought up . One of them responded to me QUOTE: In short you believe Paul is the Anti Christ.. Not a new theory Mostly just misunderstanding Pauls writings..He never preached to abolish The Torah thats a misunderstanding https://unashamedofjesus.org/2016/05/31/greatest-commandment/#comment-5642, The other one responded to me QUOTE: When you referred to Jesus words about the greatest commandment, you neglected to mention the context. St. Gamaliel, also Gamaliel the Elder or or Rabbi Gamaliel I (Hebrew: ; Greek: ) was a Pharisee who was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, a doctor of the Law (Acts 5:34-40), and the teacher of St Paul (Acts 22:3). blasphemy! [1 & 2 Corinthians.}. I admit this is all speculation and I dont have a shred of evidence for any of this but it makes me wonder if Paul was trying to start something extraordinary within Judaism (As he mentions in his defense in Acts 22) and God harnessed that ambition for the glory and advancement of His Church. I dont think breakthrough in our faith randomly happens. However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. THey were called Nazarites or Netzarim (plural) or believers of the MEssianic movement (of that time) and were a sect of Judaism. 3. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. They all teach we should be like Paul and we should listen to Paul without examining Pauls life and Pauls teachings in the light of the teachings of Jesus in Scripture. And 1 as 1. Gamaliel is reflecting the Hillel tradition of non-violence and allowing God to deal with parties that against the Jews (Polhill, Paul and His Letters, 31). Gamaliel established a number of lenient ordinances, in particular . Whom did Paul study under? 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